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in their never-ending search for the

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miracle weapon CIA operatives searched

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here in the remote mountain areas of

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southern Mexico but what up to then had

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been considered a myth magic mushrooms

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the clip you're listening to is from a

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1979 news report and it's one of the

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chapters in the fairy tale version of

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the CIA's involvement with psychedelics

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and as strange is that opening 10

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seconds was it gets even stranger they

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use this man a part-time chemist with

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the CIA to do this man a vice president

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of a bank and an amateur mycologist or

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mushroom expert to try to get to the

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magic mushrooms and turn them into a

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drug but it would be the amateur-hour

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Gordon Watson and his colleagues who

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would win the race and develop the drug

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psilocybin

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from the magic mushrooms another notion

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that a Wall Street banker like Gordon

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Wasson who is deeply connected at the

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highest level to the United States

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government to the director of the CIA to

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the Council on Foreign Relations which

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is like the most influential group in

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Washington the idea that he was somehow

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the central figure in the discovery of

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magic mushrooms in the hills of rural

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Mexico is just again it's the stuff of

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fairy tales but if we're to pull apart

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and truly understand what psychedelics

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are and how they've been used in our

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culture and how we might use them going

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forward well this story might have a lot

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of significance to those questions and

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that is at least certainly the opinion

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of today's guest on skeptic Oh Joe at

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well they do not have any concern

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whatsoever for the human value of their

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subjects these are lab rats they knew

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perfectly well that the drug produced

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psychosis and they knew perfectly well

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that a fraction of the people wouldn't

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going to come back but they went forward

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with the experimentations regardless

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this was all used against us once the

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sex drugs and rock and roll culture was

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artificial it was used against us it

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really debased and damaged our culture

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and so now as we you know hats it here

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we have you know this new era new drugs

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new research new government involvement

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we just aren't in a position until we

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know what is controlling the government

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to trust these things stick around all

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that and a lot more coming up on

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skeptical

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[Music]

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today we welcome Joseph at loyal back to

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skeptic oh he's here today to talk about

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some of his recent research in writings

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into the topic of psychedelics and

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theage ins how those have been

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introduced and promoted in our culture

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and what the implications of those might

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be for our culture going forward of

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course we talked about this subject a

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little bit a couple of episodes back and

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have been very interested in bringing

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Joe's voice and perspective to this

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discussion as I think he has a very very

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interesting and unique angle to bring to

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this topic Joe at well is of course the

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author of Cesar's Messiah a book that

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single-handedly

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forever changed the landscape of

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biblical studies and our understanding

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of the Roman influence on Christianity

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he's one of my favorite guests Joe

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welcome back to skeptic oh thanks for

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joining me

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well thank you for having Alex and what

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a kind introduction it's all true

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you know I look around and I say who are

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people you can point to who on their own

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without any institutional support

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without any of the university support or

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government support just kind of on their

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own organically kind of shaped things in

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a different way and I think that's just

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amazing about what you did with Cesar's

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Messiah so I am an O of that but I say

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that because anyone listening knows that

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I respect your work but it doesn't mean

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that I always agree with all your

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conclusions and it doesn't mean there's

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anything wrong with that either in fact

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you know maybe this is a little side

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issue that we can kind of talk about at

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the beginning because I think this

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ability to listen to someone else to

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genuinely learn from someone else and at

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the same time have you know some

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fundamental disagreements with that

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person is something that's not only

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missing in our polarized culture because

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we can see that it's missing but in a

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very kind of Joe Atwell way I think we

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and also see that it's been

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intentionally engineered out of the

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culture and I was wondering if you have

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any thoughts on that to kind of start us

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off well I would say that discourse

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politically political discourse has been

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engineered over time by the basically

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secret society the oligarchs that

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control our culture in our media and the

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kind of Talking Heads that you get in

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mainstream media are basically

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intellectual weapons they're just there

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to kind of prevent people from thinking

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clearly and so what happens whenever

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anyone brings up real issues like 9-1-1

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is basically the you know mainstream

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media just shouts them down uses

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intimidating language and over time the

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population has just become used to it

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and so and weary and they become they

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become weary or they become polarized

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which is what we see I mean they were

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weary before and now what we see is this

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kind of polarization added to the

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weariness it's kind of a double whammy

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sure and so the point is is that real

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discourse is very difficult to engage in

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in inside the media because of how it's

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been structured and this has really

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affected people's expectations about

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intellectual discourse and so it occurs

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in a very very low level and this would

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be basically a great thing to improve

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because this would help you know culture

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and democracy okay so with that let's

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jump into kind of today's subject we've

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gone a couple of rounds on this already

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and you've been very patient with me I

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was originally putting together this

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show on psychedelics and in Thea Jones

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and I contacted you and we actually did

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all interview and a lot of exchanges

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back and forth but I'm hoping we can

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capture what you're really all about on

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this because you have some really

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interesting ideas and I first ran across

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it while I was putting together that

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show

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so I want to as well as succinctly but

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thoroughly I'll have a contradiction

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talk about your idea your understanding

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about how the CIA and others have had

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their hand in shaping this cultural

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revolution of sex drugs and rock and

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roll in particular the drugs and the

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psychedelics and this debasing of

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culture that you see in that so wherever

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you want to start let's just take take

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us through the whole picture there in

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terms of what you've discovered well

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it's a it's a long historical process

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you can go all the way back to Karl Marx

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his idea about drawing European culture

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you know he was talking about unbridled

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sexuality and if with the idea of

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basically the the family was something

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that wanted that they wanted to break

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apart you can go forward down into the

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Frankfurt School which was basically an

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iteration of Marx's ideas and you can

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then you know just come right you know

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straight forward from the Frankfurt

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School into the Macy conference

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basically many of the same individuals

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are moving back and forth but they're

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all having the same ideas and then you

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have MKULTRA which was you know a CIA

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project I wanted to mention that the CIA

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you know is not the problem the problem

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is is that there is some organization

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that basically controls government and

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what we see as agencies you know and

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think of them as the problem as those

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MKULTRA was a problem within the CIA or

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the CIA is a problem within the

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government this is just not the correct

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way to understand that the the problem

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is hold on that is such an important

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point and I really want to draw that out

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and talk about that because that point

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in and of itself requires a full hashing

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out and even before I get there though I

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do know you have a lot of really

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interesting points here I want to step

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back to the first thing you said because

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I

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ask this broad question you took us all

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the way back to Karl Marx and I think

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some people are probably going well wait

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a minute what is he even talking about

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so break down that first point of why

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would you want to destroy the family why

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would you want to debase culture why

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from a kind of Makaveli in somebody has

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to rule the world that might as well be

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me perspective why would they want to do

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that I would say it's because the groups

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have hatred toward European culture well

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let me throw out another reason where

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I'm fishing for an answer here so let me

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throw it out and then you can respond to

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it it's that yeah maybe that but the

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other thing is hey man it's about

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control and [\h__\h] so you can do your

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thing the way you wanted to be done you

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don't want people thinking freely you

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don't want people doing their own thing

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even you will sacrifice progress for

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control the first and foremost thing you

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want is control so anyway you can kind

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of leave people scrambling or unsure of

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these kind of things or just in a state

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of upset it really is good if you're

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into control what do you think about

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that in addition to what you're saying

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it well I mean no no that's well said

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and in quite correct I mean the idea is

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is basically atomized individuals

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individuals without social and ethnic

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connections are far easier to control

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they are incapable of rebellion and so

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if you look at you know what has been

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destroyed by the secret society in say

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the United States from then World War

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two to today I mean you start out with

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the ethnic communities particularly

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ethnic Catholic communities these were

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targeted and basically you know pushed

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out into the suburbia where they just

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became the vast white middle-class and

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then from there you began with sex drugs

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and rock and roll and you know culture

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started to atomize even further they

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basically promoted a kind of feminism

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Gloria Steinem was the CIA agent

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promoting a kind of feminism that would

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even you know atomized the family a step

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further the single mom with the welfare

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check became something that was seen as

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are given to the population as positive

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and then you know integration was also

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promoted again it's just the idea of the

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the more atomized that an individual is

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the the easier it is for the oligarchs

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to control so atomized and homogenized

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at the same time to just make you feel

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isolated and alone and like you said

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what you how are you going to rebel when

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you feel you're an island when you feel

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you don't have any strong group to bond

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to and say okay let's go attack the

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castle exactly that's that's so you

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couldn't I couldn't say any better I

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mean that's exactly what they had in

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mind and that's exactly what they did

276
00:12:57,670 --> 00:12:55,430
you can see in their creation of the sex

277
00:13:03,070 --> 00:12:57,680
drugs and rock and roll culture you know

278
00:13:06,310 --> 00:13:03,080
a kind of a desire to use eros you know

279
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,320
the pleasure principle so-called to lure

280
00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:08,959
people away from the the cultural

281
00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:10,880
connections that could create an

282
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:12,830
organization that could could that could

283
00:13:19,780 --> 00:13:15,650
basically contest the power of the

284
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:19,790
oligarchs so basically we have been the

285
00:13:25,900 --> 00:13:22,610
victim of weaponized anthropology

286
00:13:29,410 --> 00:13:25,910
weaponized psychology if you look at the

287
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:29,420
groups that really you know have the you

288
00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:31,490
know the focus of evil I mean inside

289
00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:33,190
them when you see you don't just so many

290
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:35,720
psychologists an interesting thing for

291
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:39,040
people to do is there's a video called

292
00:13:46,300 --> 00:13:43,250
conversation about LSD and you know it's

293
00:13:48,370 --> 00:13:46,310
on YouTube and these are individuals

294
00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:48,380
that were involved in the MKULTRA

295
00:13:53,940 --> 00:13:51,200
project and you can see that the number

296
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:53,950
of psychologists anthropologists

297
00:13:59,800 --> 00:13:56,959
psychiatrists I mean it's just a it's a

298
00:14:03,130 --> 00:13:59,810
collection of intellectual technique

299
00:14:05,470 --> 00:14:03,140
that's all been brought together for

300
00:14:07,689 --> 00:14:05,480
evil let me stop you there Joe because

301
00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:07,699
you've done some

302
00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:11,689
really important digging on MKULTRA and

303
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:14,569
more importantly as you so often do

304
00:14:19,179 --> 00:14:16,639
you've taken some of the pieces that

305
00:14:21,939 --> 00:14:19,189
were always lying out there for everyone

306
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:21,949
to see and kind of put them together in

307
00:14:27,849 --> 00:14:25,519
a new and interesting important way and

308
00:14:29,799 --> 00:14:27,859
I want to get to that I just want to

309
00:14:31,749 --> 00:14:29,809
hold off one minute because as I

310
00:14:34,809 --> 00:14:31,759
promised I want to return to a point

311
00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:34,819
that you made in ever since you've said

312
00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:37,790
it it has kind of continued to ring in

313
00:14:42,819 --> 00:14:40,040
my ears so I want to draw it out and

314
00:14:48,099 --> 00:14:42,829
this is the point about the fact that

315
00:14:51,249 --> 00:14:48,109
the CIA is not the CIA as we understand

316
00:14:55,329 --> 00:14:51,259
it in common culture is any important

317
00:14:57,549 --> 00:14:55,339
point that is never drawn out but as you

318
00:14:59,710 --> 00:14:57,559
give some examples it's really

319
00:15:02,470 --> 00:14:59,720
self-evident when you look at some of

320
00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:02,480
these things and you say well gee that

321
00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:05,480
that really isn't a governmental agency

322
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:07,910
that it really is in a group that is in

323
00:15:13,659 --> 00:15:10,730
there under any oversight or control and

324
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:13,669
even there their mission seems to be

325
00:15:20,109 --> 00:15:16,730
somewhat bigger there's something above

326
00:15:22,989 --> 00:15:20,119
that that I'm not aware of and yet I'm

327
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:22,999
being told over and over again oh that's

328
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:25,970
the CIA that's the CIA walk us through

329
00:15:34,269 --> 00:15:29,600
how we know there's something above the

330
00:15:36,929 --> 00:15:34,279
CIA well first of all if you just look

331
00:15:40,119 --> 00:15:36,939
at the heads of the CIA you know as the

332
00:15:44,319 --> 00:15:40,129
organization you know came to our

333
00:15:47,949 --> 00:15:44,329
culture I mean Donovan Dulles Helms

334
00:15:51,579 --> 00:15:47,959
these are all investment bankers lawyers

335
00:15:54,189 --> 00:15:51,589
and the idea that these would be the

336
00:15:56,979 --> 00:15:54,199
head of a international intelligence

337
00:15:59,499 --> 00:15:56,989
gathering organization just on its face

338
00:16:02,349 --> 00:15:59,509
is preposterous I mean you would think

339
00:16:05,409 --> 00:16:02,359
that this is more an organization

340
00:16:08,679 --> 00:16:05,419
created by banking families if you look

341
00:16:11,889 --> 00:16:08,689
at the precursor of the CIA you have the

342
00:16:14,109 --> 00:16:11,899
OSS and then look in the you know

343
00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:14,119
organizational charts of OSS in Europe

344
00:16:18,850 --> 00:16:15,769
it's all the Mellon family the Mellon

345
00:16:21,079 --> 00:16:18,860
banking family and so you you have right

346
00:16:23,569 --> 00:16:21,089
on on its face you have some

347
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:23,579
bizarre connection into banking families

348
00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:25,110
and and something with just both the

349
00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:26,790
military intelligence and then you come

350
00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:31,470
forward a few years and you have the

351
00:16:36,949 --> 00:16:33,569
MKULTRA employment of someone named

352
00:16:39,139 --> 00:16:36,959
Gordon Watson and Watson is a person who

353
00:16:41,569 --> 00:16:39,149
really begins a psychedelic movement in

354
00:16:44,809 --> 00:16:41,579
the United States and what is his

355
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:44,819
background well he is a partner in JP

356
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:48,809
Morgan and so this really isn't you know

357
00:16:54,860 --> 00:16:50,910
something that could possibly be

358
00:16:56,689 --> 00:16:54,870
circumstantial it's it's you know just

359
00:16:58,730 --> 00:16:56,699
be statistically crazy and then of

360
00:17:01,129 --> 00:16:58,740
course when you look at if you go out

361
00:17:03,019 --> 00:17:01,139
just a few individuals you'll see that

362
00:17:06,769 --> 00:17:03,029
the melon family returns you know Billy

363
00:17:08,929 --> 00:17:06,779
Hitchcock melon is in Mill Brook mansion

364
00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:08,939
is where Tim Larry's living and then

365
00:17:14,389 --> 00:17:11,100
they're funding the Grateful Dead and so

366
00:17:16,250 --> 00:17:14,399
you can see that basically the the

367
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:16,260
banking families have had this

368
00:17:21,769 --> 00:17:19,679
tremendous impact on what's supposed to

369
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:21,779
be military intelligence supposed to be

370
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:23,490
something as in under the control of

371
00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:26,250
democracy and then if you if you just

372
00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:28,590
you know again just take a step back you

373
00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:31,260
can see secret societies you see

374
00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:33,240
individuals or members of the Bohemian

375
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:39,000
Grove Freemasonry and other secret

376
00:17:43,340 --> 00:17:40,799
societies or military intelligence I

377
00:17:46,450 --> 00:17:43,350
mean I one thing that really basically

378
00:17:49,549 --> 00:17:46,460
got me kind of moving down this path was

379
00:17:51,889 --> 00:17:49,559
when I started looking at MKULTRA and

380
00:17:54,620 --> 00:17:51,899
saw it was you know headquartered in

381
00:17:57,019 --> 00:17:54,630
Palo Alto and I saw the relationship

382
00:18:00,620 --> 00:17:57,029
between it and the counterculture

383
00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:00,630
I noticed that there had been a car

384
00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:02,940
accident right outside the Palo Alto

385
00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:05,700
Hospital that basically the MKULTRA

386
00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:07,529
employment was going on for Robert

387
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:08,940
hunter member of the Grateful Dead and

388
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:11,370
Ken Kesey you know the individual

389
00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:13,679
created the acid test and in the car

390
00:18:18,260 --> 00:18:16,080
accident a police report was created and

391
00:18:21,289 --> 00:18:18,270
you have Robert hunter and Jerry Garcia

392
00:18:23,630 --> 00:18:21,299
now this makes sense because you know

393
00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:23,640
they in my opinion are fully inside the

394
00:18:27,169 --> 00:18:25,830
deal and they're helping to bring about

395
00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:27,179
these sex drugs and rock'n'roll

396
00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:29,880
counterculture but the other individual

397
00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:34,590
in the car is so significant it was Eric

398
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:35,190
Tris

399
00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:39,870
and Eric is the son of Alan tryst the

400
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:41,790
founder of the Tavistock Institute and

401
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:44,640
the Tavistock was basically just the

402
00:18:50,690 --> 00:18:49,290
British half of sort of the MKULTRA you

403
00:18:52,610 --> 00:18:50,700
know kind of operation I mean

404
00:18:54,650 --> 00:18:52,620
individuals pass back and forth between

405
00:18:56,510 --> 00:18:54,660
the organization's and and of course

406
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,520
there's just no reason at all that such

407
00:19:01,880 --> 00:18:59,280
an individual would be with you know

408
00:19:05,570 --> 00:19:01,890
this group as they're leaving and of the

409
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:05,580
hospital where these the CM Caltrain you

410
00:19:10,820 --> 00:19:09,600
know LSD it training is going on and so

411
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:10,830
it just gives you a very clear picture

412
00:19:19,630 --> 00:19:16,400
that you know but that what we think are

413
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:19,640
democratically controlled institutions

414
00:19:24,590 --> 00:19:23,010
basically have hidden agendas and that

415
00:19:27,050 --> 00:19:24,600
the science that that they're developing

416
00:19:30,350 --> 00:19:27,060
which we think is supposed to be either

417
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:30,360
defending us against spy crafts from the

418
00:19:34,930 --> 00:19:32,750
Russians or whatever is actually

419
00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:34,940
technology that they're developing to

420
00:19:42,350 --> 00:19:37,830
enslave the population to create a kind

421
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:42,360
of mental domination by controlling our

422
00:19:48,710 --> 00:19:46,160
history by controlling our culture and

423
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:48,720
unfortunately I'm afraid it ends up with

424
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:52,830
a massive reduction in population this

425
00:19:58,250 --> 00:19:56,250
doesn't you know lead to a pacific slave

426
00:20:00,080 --> 00:19:58,260
state I mean they basically exterminate

427
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,090
the people they want off the planet and

428
00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:02,880
and then they have one you know that's

429
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:04,710
interesting the last part of it is

430
00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:09,000
pretty controversial I don't know how

431
00:20:14,690 --> 00:20:11,270
much of that last part I buy into but

432
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:14,700
again and in typical kind of Jo hat will

433
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:16,530
fash it there's a couple of points in

434
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:18,510
there that are just incredibly

435
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:21,240
insightful in an important way and I

436
00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:22,970
want to connect it to a skeptic oh

437
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:25,140
interview that I did people might

438
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:26,730
remember a few months ago I interviewed

439
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:30,360
this guy doctor EDA who was the head of

440
00:20:35,810 --> 00:20:32,610
research at the Stanford Research

441
00:20:37,940 --> 00:20:35,820
Institute Stargate program which if

442
00:20:41,030 --> 00:20:37,950
anyone has really investigated this

443
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:41,040
again to your point you know Stargate is

444
00:20:48,530 --> 00:20:44,640
off doing remote viewing and psychic

445
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:48,540
spying the mission really was to counter

446
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:53,220
a Russian initiative at psychic use and

447
00:20:59,330 --> 00:20:56,460
psychic spying and to psychically

448
00:21:01,820 --> 00:20:59,340
influence leaders in the United States

449
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:01,830
this has been discovered and disclosed

450
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:04,770
after the fall of the Soviet Union we

451
00:21:10,010 --> 00:21:06,650
have exposure to some of those documents

452
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:10,020
but and here's how all this stuff gets

453
00:21:14,150 --> 00:21:12,330
really really complicated and it has to

454
00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:14,160
be fully examined in the way that you

455
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:18,600
were doing it so that sounds like CIA

456
00:21:24,740 --> 00:21:21,120
work and it was I mean the Stargate

457
00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:24,750
project was military intelligence funded

458
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:29,070
it was also a part of MKULTRA that's

459
00:21:33,530 --> 00:21:30,840
really important what you're saying

460
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:33,540
there Joe it's a part of this larger

461
00:21:39,350 --> 00:21:37,110
mission involving mind control and

462
00:21:42,020 --> 00:21:39,360
control the population that we don't

463
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,030
like to talk about here's what I think

464
00:21:48,790 --> 00:21:44,640
was significant about my interview with

465
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:48,800
Ed May he comes across as a good soldier

466
00:21:55,310 --> 00:21:52,430
he has a very limited worldview that

467
00:21:59,300 --> 00:21:55,320
doesn't allow him to even understand

468
00:22:03,170 --> 00:21:59,310
fully the research that he was doing let

469
00:22:06,050 --> 00:22:03,180
alone the larger way that that fits into

470
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:06,060
the equation but then again isn't that

471
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:07,980
the kind of guy you want in that

472
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:11,610
position but the point I wanted to kind

473
00:22:16,250 --> 00:22:14,370
of draw out because I think it amplifies

474
00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:16,260
in a way but further complicates your

475
00:22:23,990 --> 00:22:20,580
point is he talks about some very real

476
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:24,000
stories from his worldview about going

477
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:26,490
to Congress meeting with congressmen

478
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:29,310
trying to get funding for Stargate the

479
00:22:36,980 --> 00:22:34,290
battle for ongoing support among people

480
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:36,990
who had to respond to constituents who

481
00:22:40,670 --> 00:22:38,610
said I think what you're doing is

482
00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:40,680
satanic it goes against my religious

483
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:43,380
views and all the rest of that and what

484
00:22:51,050 --> 00:22:46,400
I took out of that is that you can

485
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:51,060
understand why there's a meta CIA why

486
00:22:56,450 --> 00:22:53,510
there's a control level above that

487
00:22:58,460 --> 00:22:56,460
because on another and I'm not saying I

488
00:22:59,680 --> 00:22:58,470
buy into this totally but from a very

489
00:23:02,050 --> 00:22:59,690
practical sense

490
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:02,060
somebody has to rule the world

491
00:23:07,950 --> 00:23:04,850
you know you can't you here's a real

492
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:07,960
threat that we have to respond to and

493
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:12,410
you can't go to Congress and say this is

494
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:14,930
a real real threat in terms of psychic

495
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:17,210
spying we need to do something you just

496
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:20,570
can't get that stuff funded so even

497
00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:23,330
though I think EDA fits the useful idiot

498
00:23:29,980 --> 00:23:26,120
role to a certain extent there's also a

499
00:23:32,830 --> 00:23:29,990
realness to what it takes to run a

500
00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:32,840
superpower and to run an intelligence

501
00:23:39,580 --> 00:23:37,340
organization that is complicated tell me

502
00:23:41,710 --> 00:23:39,590
what you think about all that I think

503
00:23:45,460 --> 00:23:41,720
that's a logical principle that if you

504
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:45,470
you know carry it to an extreme creates

505
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:49,250
basically a situation where the

506
00:23:54,550 --> 00:23:53,120
oligarchs can justify anything and it

507
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,560
creates the situation that we find

508
00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:56,480
ourselves in doesn't it which is exactly

509
00:24:02,650 --> 00:23:58,880
right and so you know I would just say

510
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:02,660
that I don't buy the guys story I doubt

511
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:03,710
it very much

512
00:24:08,620 --> 00:24:05,570
I'm I don't think he would be that

513
00:24:09,940 --> 00:24:08,630
stupid I think you have to listen to the

514
00:24:12,010 --> 00:24:09,950
interview yeah I haven't heard it but

515
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:12,020
I'm just on his face I don't like it

516
00:24:20,860 --> 00:24:17,330
because the Sr I was fully exposed as

517
00:24:23,140 --> 00:24:20,870
doing you know brain experiments which

518
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:23,150
are against the law which would damage

519
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:24,910
the individuals they were doing

520
00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:33,750
experimentation was going to take place

521
00:24:38,350 --> 00:24:36,860
when when this was found out and this

522
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:38,360
was one of the one of the things that

523
00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:40,010
actually led up to the church commission

524
00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:43,280
when this was found out some guy in the

525
00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:46,280
Navy I forget his name but he demanded

526
00:24:53,050 --> 00:24:49,430
that the same stop because knew his name

527
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:53,060
was Coast love Coast law he was some you

528
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:55,430
know muck amuck in the Navy I think he

529
00:24:58,900 --> 00:24:57,290
was like the secretary of the Navy and

530
00:25:02,560 --> 00:24:58,910
he said what the hell's going on you got

531
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:02,570
to stop this thing the SR I blew him off

532
00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:05,990
they didn't bother to stop and then then

533
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:07,940
they were able to get money funded

534
00:25:13,030 --> 00:25:10,910
through another source in the Navy the

535
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:13,040
Navy itself was going against the

536
00:25:17,150 --> 00:25:15,510
secretary and funded the SR I

537
00:25:19,540 --> 00:25:17,160
for another hundred grand so they could

538
00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:19,550
continue with something that basically

539
00:25:23,870 --> 00:25:21,870
every one of the individuals involved

540
00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:23,880
with should be brought in front of a

541
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:26,190
trial kind of a Nuremberg type trial and

542
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:29,820
and incarcerated so so this is and and

543
00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:31,290
bear in mind that what they're trying to

544
00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:34,110
do with with this kind of a low

545
00:25:39,020 --> 00:25:37,500
frequency wave study is they're trying

546
00:25:41,870 --> 00:25:39,030
to learn how to control people like

547
00:25:45,950 --> 00:25:41,880
robots this is what they're trying to do

548
00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:45,960
Alex so I'm sorry I just you know this

549
00:25:51,470 --> 00:25:49,470
guy may just be an absolute kind of my

550
00:25:54,170 --> 00:25:51,480
optic individual who can't see what's

551
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:54,180
going on but you know I'm just gonna err

552
00:25:59,120 --> 00:25:56,010
on the side of caution and I'm just

553
00:26:02,060 --> 00:25:59,130
gonna say look you have to assume that

554
00:26:05,030 --> 00:26:02,070
they're all dirty and you have to assume

555
00:26:07,940 --> 00:26:05,040
that every single experiment that these

556
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:07,950
guys are doing is either overtly dirty

557
00:26:12,770 --> 00:26:09,710
it's just done for the purpose of

558
00:26:15,020 --> 00:26:12,780
enslaving the population or it's

559
00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:15,030
something that in general could be used

560
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:19,190
in some way for this project so you know

561
00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:22,470
unless proven otherwise I think we're

562
00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:24,390
really wise to err on the side of

563
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:25,680
caution and I'm just gonna remind

564
00:26:30,380 --> 00:26:27,510
something now just because I know that

565
00:26:34,610 --> 00:26:30,390
you know this is this is something that

566
00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:34,620
dumb creates a kind of clear line of fur

567
00:26:40,610 --> 00:26:38,520
for analysis and that is 9/11 now if you

568
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:40,620
believe that you know the building's can

569
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:43,110
fall straight down at freefall speed and

570
00:26:47,330 --> 00:26:45,480
and you know that the the guy was able

571
00:26:51,050 --> 00:26:47,340
to fly the plane and hit the Pentagon

572
00:26:55,310 --> 00:26:51,060
with no debris okay god bless you just

573
00:26:59,000 --> 00:26:55,320
go your way those of us who see these

574
00:27:00,620 --> 00:26:59,010
events as self-evident right that this

575
00:27:02,810 --> 00:27:00,630
was simply an operation by the

576
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:02,820
government then we have to understand

577
00:27:09,290 --> 00:27:05,970
that we are living in the world that has

578
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:09,300
been created by the MKULTRA science and

579
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:12,090
technology right MKULTRA didn't

580
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:14,490
disappear when the Church Commission

581
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:17,610
asked to have all of the documents helm

582
00:27:21,590 --> 00:27:20,190
said you know what I destroyed them and

583
00:27:25,130 --> 00:27:21,600
they said why because I didn't want to

584
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:25,140
embarrass my friends right so so this

585
00:27:28,780 --> 00:27:26,970
and then he continued on as head of the

586
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:28,790
CIA so you can see that tomorrow

587
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:33,200
Percy is just a facade that the overall

588
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:36,530
project of mind control has continued

589
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:40,370
unabated and we are now suffering as you

590
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:43,760
know as of as a nation underneath its

591
00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:47,600
Bootheel so when when you know we talked

592
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:50,000
about well could there be some

593
00:27:55,890 --> 00:27:53,530
justification based on you know the a

594
00:27:59,800 --> 00:27:55,900
technological arms waste with Russia

595
00:28:03,130 --> 00:27:59,810
it's irrelevant to me Alex I don't care

596
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:03,140
sure who cares what is important is that

597
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:05,840
the organization has never been brought

598
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:09,290
to sunlight and it's it's when people

599
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:11,930
ask me about well what about the you

600
00:28:17,470 --> 00:28:14,720
know the spiritual potentiality of

601
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:17,480
psychedelic drugs I just say look that

602
00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:20,720
isn't on the table what is on the table

603
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:22,820
is that there is an organization that

604
00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:26,090
has been using these things against us

605
00:28:34,090 --> 00:28:30,910
and until until that has been brought

606
00:28:36,550 --> 00:28:34,100
completely to sunlight then all of these

607
00:28:38,410 --> 00:28:36,560
attributes that have come out of their

608
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:38,420
manipulation of culture have to be

609
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:41,810
stopped I mean we just has to stop right

610
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:45,410
now freeze in our tracks and we have to

611
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:47,930
do the investigation of what is inside

612
00:28:52,060 --> 00:28:50,330
the government and then we can make

613
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:52,070
decisions about what is this a good

614
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:54,530
cultural idea or is there something to

615
00:29:00,760 --> 00:28:56,450
worry about from Russia or the Chinese

616
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:00,770
but right now the problem is inside the

617
00:29:05,170 --> 00:29:02,930
government it's what controls it that's

618
00:29:07,630 --> 00:29:05,180
what we've got to focus on we can get to

619
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:07,640
all these other issues later I'm not

620
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:10,490
opposed to any you know these ideas I'm

621
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,530
just saying that it's not really

622
00:29:15,910 --> 00:29:14,000
something that we need to deal with

623
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,920
immediately what we got to do right now

624
00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:18,080
is we've got to focus on what's

625
00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:21,440
controlling our government you know

626
00:29:27,130 --> 00:29:24,950
there's so many amazing points there I

627
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:27,140
want to tell people that we're recording

628
00:29:33,580 --> 00:29:31,010
this on nine twelve the day after nine

629
00:29:36,070 --> 00:29:33,590
eleven is interesting I think what you

630
00:29:38,530 --> 00:29:36,080
just said about nine eleven is so

631
00:29:40,990 --> 00:29:38,540
beautifully put I wish I could just pull

632
00:29:42,610 --> 00:29:41,000
that out and play that for people over

633
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:42,620
and over again because it does

634
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:46,370
get hard to talk about 9/11 and I've

635
00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:48,020
mentioned my wife a couple of times she

636
00:29:54,310 --> 00:29:51,280
always kind of takes has to take this

637
00:29:58,990 --> 00:29:54,320
the role that she plays which is you

638
00:30:01,750 --> 00:29:59,000
know MPR listening a verse to any kind

639
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:01,760
of conspiracy and you know she said

640
00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:05,120
yesterday gee you know I mean I really

641
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:07,670
feel for the whole 9/11 thing and all

642
00:30:12,220 --> 00:30:09,410
the people that died but oh my god

643
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:12,230
aren't we over that and I was like you

644
00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:18,470
know if you understand 9/11 as a guy in

645
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:21,230
a cave who flew a couple of planes into

646
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:23,690
some buildings yeah

647
00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:26,450
we really should be over it but if you

648
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:29,750
understand it for what it really is what

649
00:30:37,690 --> 00:30:35,600
it as you said plainly is then we should

650
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:37,700
never be over it because we can never

651
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:41,210
even take as you beautifully said we

652
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:42,650
cannot go forward

653
00:30:49,210 --> 00:30:46,850
until we resolve that so you know we're

654
00:30:51,370 --> 00:30:49,220
gonna go on in this dialogue and we're

655
00:30:53,169 --> 00:30:51,380
gonna leave 9/11 behind because that's

656
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:53,179
not what we're here to talk about but I

657
00:31:00,130 --> 00:30:56,720
think you are spot-on to bring that up

658
00:31:02,049 --> 00:31:00,140
and bring that center stage because we

659
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:02,059
can bounce around and talk about a

660
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:04,880
million other things when we're not

661
00:31:12,010 --> 00:31:07,490
putting first things first which is you

662
00:31:14,590 --> 00:31:12,020
know hey 9/11 was an inside job okay so

663
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:14,600
from there we can we can't go forward

664
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:15,890
when you talk about anything else but

665
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:17,809
doesn't inside yeah let's be clear about

666
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:20,390
that okay so let's get back to talking

667
00:31:28,299 --> 00:31:23,090
about psychedelics because you made

668
00:31:30,730 --> 00:31:28,309
again your case very very well I have to

669
00:31:32,110 --> 00:31:30,740
say but I want to step back in history

670
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:32,120
and I want you to build that case a

671
00:31:37,090 --> 00:31:35,360
little bit the last time we talked this

672
00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:37,100
isn't in the interview but maybe I'll

673
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:39,860
include some clips in for people we

674
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:41,450
talked about Gordon Watson

675
00:31:49,150 --> 00:31:45,230
we talked about Andre Padraic people

676
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:49,160
that you as a literary analyst like to

677
00:31:55,270 --> 00:31:51,710
bring to the stage and show their role

678
00:31:56,260 --> 00:31:55,280
let's talk about Gordon Watson who was

679
00:31:58,990 --> 00:31:56,270
he what

680
00:32:03,570 --> 00:31:59,000
does he play why do we think this is an

681
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:03,580
actor rather than a real individual

682
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:05,510
Wasson was the guy who brought

683
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:07,330
psychedelic drugs to American culture

684
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:11,450
there was an article May 1957 that

685
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:13,850
described his journey into the Mexican

686
00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:16,070
desert in Life magazine which people

687
00:32:20,020 --> 00:32:17,480
won't remember but I mean this is like

688
00:32:22,210 --> 00:32:20,030
you know this is it you're in Life

689
00:32:24,370 --> 00:32:22,220
magazine that's it right yeah I was the

690
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:24,380
most powerful and best widely most

691
00:32:29,410 --> 00:32:25,910
widely read magazine the United States

692
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:29,420
it was owned by Henry Luce skullenbones

693
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:36,110
secret society guy and Wasson was you

694
00:32:41,950 --> 00:32:38,570
know he was unemployed well he was a

695
00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:41,960
partner in JP Morgan he was very very

696
00:32:48,610 --> 00:32:45,350
high up inside the secret society he was

697
00:32:50,350 --> 00:32:48,620
actually a chairman of the meetings of

698
00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:50,360
the Council of Foreign Relations and

699
00:32:55,180 --> 00:32:52,880
this is just critically important

700
00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:55,190
because say that again so people don't

701
00:32:58,630 --> 00:32:57,320
lose sight of that because the way he's

702
00:33:01,090 --> 00:32:58,640
portrayed and I will at this point

703
00:33:05,169 --> 00:33:01,100
probably interject or

704
00:33:08,490 --> 00:33:05,179
splice in that clip where he's he's on a

705
00:33:11,650 --> 00:33:08,500
TV show being portrayed as just this

706
00:33:14,610 --> 00:33:11,660
adventure indiana jones independent guy

707
00:33:17,380 --> 00:33:14,620
down there in the jungles looking at

708
00:33:18,370 --> 00:33:17,390
psychedelics and then counsel on Foreign

709
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:18,380
Relations

710
00:33:23,530 --> 00:33:20,960
yeah right doesn't make much sense does

711
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:23,540
it well particularly that he would be

712
00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:26,170
the chairman these were documents that

713
00:33:33,610 --> 00:33:31,520
were unearthed by John Irvin and they

714
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:33,620
are you know just transparent they

715
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:36,050
because they are there they basically

716
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:37,970
see if our documents and they list the

717
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:39,410
individuals in the room during the

718
00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:41,210
meeting and they also list basically the

719
00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:43,940
chairmen of the organization Gordon

720
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:44,540
Wasson

721
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:47,690
so you know if you know the background

722
00:33:53,380 --> 00:33:50,000
of the CFR you know that it is basically

723
00:33:55,419 --> 00:33:53,390
the Union between the bank's military

724
00:33:59,160 --> 00:33:55,429
intelligence and you know political

725
00:34:02,290 --> 00:33:59,170
power it's a secret society to this day

726
00:34:05,620 --> 00:34:02,300
presidents and presidents - that want to

727
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:05,630
be reference the Council on Foreign

728
00:34:10,089 --> 00:34:09,050
Relations in hushed tones I mean you can

729
00:34:11,739 --> 00:34:10,099
go listen

730
00:34:14,739 --> 00:34:11,749
to Hillary Clinton and she says oh you

731
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:14,749
know the CFR I get my daily marching

732
00:34:19,059 --> 00:34:16,970
orders and they've been so outed that I

733
00:34:22,690 --> 00:34:19,069
think the power is shift to some other

734
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:22,700
secret groups but man anyone who has any

735
00:34:28,659 --> 00:34:26,210
doubts I mean the CFR was it in terms of

736
00:34:30,700 --> 00:34:28,669
where you went for power sure and it's

737
00:34:32,229 --> 00:34:30,710
good to kind of note the sort of the

738
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:32,239
secret organizations that are in

739
00:34:36,999 --> 00:34:34,159
bacchanal process so you've got Skull

740
00:34:38,619 --> 00:34:37,009
and Bones owning Life magazine the

741
00:34:44,499 --> 00:34:38,629
chairman of the Council on Foreign

742
00:34:46,299 --> 00:34:44,509
Relations going down to Mexico and then

743
00:34:49,690 --> 00:34:46,309
saying you know he had this spiritual

744
00:34:52,389 --> 00:34:49,700
and very positive experience which then

745
00:34:56,579 --> 00:34:52,399
basically becomes the foundation story

746
00:35:00,700 --> 00:34:56,589
of psychedelic drugs that they are

747
00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:00,710
basically from a vast and deep religious

748
00:35:08,890 --> 00:35:05,089
tradition and that they will help person

749
00:35:11,739 --> 00:35:08,900
on their spiritual development and you

750
00:35:15,489 --> 00:35:11,749
know the story that Watson told was

751
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:15,499
untrue I mean the events were shaded in

752
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:17,450
such a way to create the impression that

753
00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:21,410
this was a an ancient God seeking

754
00:35:28,059 --> 00:35:23,950
organization in Wasson and went on with

755
00:35:30,370 --> 00:35:28,069
Carl Rusk and named this you know

756
00:35:34,269 --> 00:35:30,380
category of psychedelic drugs and

757
00:35:36,579 --> 00:35:34,279
fusions you know the God within and you

758
00:35:40,359 --> 00:35:36,589
know in fact this was all nonsense the

759
00:35:41,709 --> 00:35:40,369
you know the the ancient codicils and

760
00:35:43,930 --> 00:35:41,719
the letters from the missionary all

761
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:43,940
talked about the use of mushrooms as

762
00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:46,400
something that you know would be akin to

763
00:35:51,130 --> 00:35:49,160
LSD use by the grip by the deadheads I

764
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:51,140
mean it was it was not something that

765
00:35:56,799 --> 00:35:52,729
was a spiritual development that it was

766
00:36:00,279 --> 00:35:56,809
more recreational or narcotic you know

767
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:00,289
people talk about ayahuasca and like

768
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:02,960
well you know how could it possibly be

769
00:36:08,739 --> 00:36:06,410
the case that these two plants were

770
00:36:11,289 --> 00:36:08,749
joined together and that's you know just

771
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:11,299
because people don't know that in that

772
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:14,450
culture that emetics are very common

773
00:36:18,190 --> 00:36:16,609
that because of the parasites and you

774
00:36:21,279 --> 00:36:18,200
know the amazon basin that people need

775
00:36:21,580 --> 00:36:21,289
to vomit and so there had been you know

776
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:21,590
what

777
00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:24,530
tradition of emetics going back a long

778
00:36:29,230 --> 00:36:27,320
way and at one point something figured

779
00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:29,240
out that if you combined these two

780
00:36:33,340 --> 00:36:31,160
plants you could really get sick and

781
00:36:35,020 --> 00:36:33,350
this was the basis of ayahuasca it was

782
00:36:38,350 --> 00:36:35,030
it was through the emetic tradition it

783
00:36:40,210 --> 00:36:38,360
wasn't a long-standing spiritual path

784
00:36:43,090 --> 00:36:40,220
and then of course that was brought you

785
00:36:45,270 --> 00:36:43,100
know just like the the the magic

786
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:45,280
mushrooms is brought by Gordon Watson

787
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:48,800
and n MKULTRA because Watson's trip was

788
00:36:53,590 --> 00:36:50,210
then discovered documents were then

789
00:36:55,330 --> 00:36:53,600
discovered dr. Colin Ross psychiatrist

790
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:55,340
who was dealing with victims of MKULTRA

791
00:37:00,220 --> 00:36:58,400
in Canada he got his hands on on

792
00:37:03,850 --> 00:37:00,230
documents and found that Wasson

793
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:03,860
basically was being paid for as all of

794
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:05,210
these trips were being paid for right

795
00:37:11,110 --> 00:37:08,960
out of MKULTRA so Watson was you know

796
00:37:14,830 --> 00:37:11,120
was what this whole trip was an MKULTRA

797
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:14,840
project and this you know it's very

798
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:17,090
similar to how the ayahuasca comes into

799
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:18,530
our culture because that comes from

800
00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:21,710
William Burroughs Burroughs is someone

801
00:37:26,290 --> 00:37:23,510
who was has a background in military

802
00:37:28,030 --> 00:37:26,300
intelligence he had private meetings

803
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:28,040
with William Donovan who became the

804
00:37:34,660 --> 00:37:31,130
first head of the CIA before he goes

805
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:34,670
down to Mexico while he's there he he

806
00:37:41,470 --> 00:37:38,090
kills his wife and then goes into the

807
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:41,480
jungle with John Marquis Archie is an

808
00:37:49,060 --> 00:37:44,690
OSS guy and they are looking for the

809
00:37:50,830 --> 00:37:49,070
ayahuasca you know this is this is you

810
00:37:52,690 --> 00:37:50,840
know and when you stand back and look at

811
00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:52,700
the big picture you can see this is just

812
00:37:57,070 --> 00:37:53,990
they're just trying to create this kind

813
00:38:00,610 --> 00:37:57,080
of tradition that doesn't really exist

814
00:38:03,490 --> 00:38:00,620
of a deep spiritual history for these

815
00:38:05,890 --> 00:38:03,500
plants and this is all going to be given

816
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:05,900
to basically the deadhead as

817
00:38:09,790 --> 00:38:07,970
justification for the cultural

818
00:38:14,260 --> 00:38:09,800
development that they're interested in

819
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:14,270
bringing about you know I always

820
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:17,650
mentioned that people do this little

821
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:20,000
experiment because it's very simple and

822
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:21,770
you can see what we're up against if

823
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:24,050
there's anything in our culture that

824
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:25,970
shows you exactly we're up against it's

825
00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:29,360
the 19 May 1957 Life magazine cover

826
00:38:34,010 --> 00:38:32,120
right so you look at the cover and

827
00:38:36,850 --> 00:38:34,020
you'll see there's a black box

828
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:36,860
which is inset into the cover and

829
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:40,619
there's words on it and one of them is

830
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:44,910
basically describing the spiritual

831
00:38:50,660 --> 00:38:46,890
visions from mushrooms in the Mexican

832
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:50,670
desert but two articles which are

833
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:52,410
distinct from Mawson's are also

834
00:38:58,480 --> 00:38:54,800
referenced inside the black box and the

835
00:39:02,240 --> 00:38:58,490
one on top simply says great adventures

836
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:02,250
but the final words are just are

837
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:04,170
purportedly describing another article

838
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:07,530
but are the words teenage allowances

839
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:11,520
right now I assert that once you

840
00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:12,810
understand that neural linguistic

841
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:15,240
programming or coding the unconscious

842
00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:17,520
you know you mentioned you know how they

843
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:19,380
were like looking at how to get at the

844
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:20,880
unconscious with these different

845
00:39:26,359 --> 00:39:22,890
techniques why don't you understand that

846
00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:26,369
wasun is representing MKULTRA then you

847
00:39:31,820 --> 00:39:28,470
look at the box and you go oh I get it

848
00:39:33,770 --> 00:39:31,830
great adventures teenage allowances you

849
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:33,780
see this is what they're trying to do

850
00:39:39,890 --> 00:39:35,010
this is all going to end up in Woodstock

851
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:39,900
in about 12 years so they they're using

852
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:43,680
neuro-linguistic programming basically

853
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:46,170
they have determined how to you know

854
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:48,450
what they think are ways to basically

855
00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:50,640
influence us through the subconscious

856
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:54,630
and they are just transparently using it

857
00:40:00,340 --> 00:39:56,880
in in this you know in this life

858
00:40:02,540 --> 00:40:00,350
magazine cover and so you know this is

859
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:02,550
you know this is a place where I think

860
00:40:07,609 --> 00:40:05,490
the citizens should just stop spend a

861
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:07,619
little time and reflection try to you

862
00:40:12,050 --> 00:40:10,410
know they're maybe go through the

863
00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:12,060
process of kind of looking a little bit

864
00:40:17,780 --> 00:40:14,700
at neural linguistic programming looking

865
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:17,790
at what the MKULTRA science was in

866
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:20,310
development and then just honestly ask

867
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:22,050
yourself well is there any possibility

868
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:24,330
that's a circumstance because I just

869
00:40:28,250 --> 00:40:26,430
don't think so Alex I'm afraid not and

870
00:40:34,070 --> 00:40:28,260
so this is what we're up against is that

871
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:34,080
they are very sophisticated they have an

872
00:40:41,349 --> 00:40:38,420
absolute disregard for the humanity of

873
00:40:44,990 --> 00:40:41,359
the what could be called their subjects

874
00:40:46,779 --> 00:40:45,000
right when you look at 9-1-1 look at the

875
00:40:50,429 --> 00:40:46,789
number of deaths that occurred

876
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:50,439
you know the people that pulled that off

877
00:40:54,789 --> 00:40:52,609
basically felt they had the moral

878
00:40:56,469 --> 00:40:54,799
authority just to kill thousands of

879
00:40:59,919 --> 00:40:56,479
people and what can be described as a

880
00:41:02,169 --> 00:40:59,929
religious ritual right I mean there was

881
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,179
really no they could have done this this

882
00:41:06,329 --> 00:41:04,400
in many other ways without having so

883
00:41:08,589 --> 00:41:06,339
many fatalities but they did it this way

884
00:41:12,459 --> 00:41:08,599
which means that they don't give a damn

885
00:41:15,609 --> 00:41:12,469
about the life the the value of

886
00:41:19,029 --> 00:41:15,619
existence of the people that they see as

887
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:19,039
their subjects so when you look at the

888
00:41:25,959 --> 00:41:21,410
May 1957 cover you're looking at the

889
00:41:29,049 --> 00:41:25,969
same moral view of humanity you're

890
00:41:33,429 --> 00:41:29,059
inside the guild or you are basically an

891
00:41:36,130 --> 00:41:33,439
animal and so this is the the point that

892
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:36,140
the Citizen has to start to organize

893
00:41:42,099 --> 00:41:38,689
themselves to defend themselves against

894
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:42,109
this group I mean we want to have a

895
00:41:47,919 --> 00:41:45,410
future we want to have you know a world

896
00:41:50,109 --> 00:41:47,929
where our children can flourish we have

897
00:41:51,699 --> 00:41:50,119
got to clean up the mess in government

898
00:41:54,699 --> 00:41:51,709
you know the people control that we've

899
00:41:58,209 --> 00:41:54,709
got to expose it we have to you know

900
00:42:01,959 --> 00:41:58,219
basically make democracy work to benefit

901
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:01,969
us and and recognize how they have

902
00:42:07,929 --> 00:42:04,609
controlled it you know and control the

903
00:42:11,439 --> 00:42:07,939
candidates so that we have no choices so

904
00:42:14,169 --> 00:42:11,449
that our history is is falsified you

905
00:42:17,289 --> 00:42:14,179
know so that you know when 9/11 these

906
00:42:19,359 --> 00:42:17,299
things occur the media just creates a

907
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:19,369
fictional story that's used for mind

908
00:42:23,979 --> 00:42:21,650
control well let me jump in there

909
00:42:25,479 --> 00:42:23,989
sorry no no that's all right you you

910
00:42:27,870 --> 00:42:25,489
made some you made some really good

911
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:27,880
points and I think you made your case

912
00:42:32,380 --> 00:42:31,130
very in a very strong way that you know

913
00:42:34,989 --> 00:42:32,390
people are gonna find a lot of things

914
00:42:37,870 --> 00:42:34,999
that maybe they don't go along with but

915
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:37,880
I'd encourage anyone to really but at

916
00:42:42,999 --> 00:42:40,249
the same time dig into all the details

917
00:42:45,819 --> 00:42:43,009
and then step back and say is he may be

918
00:42:48,909 --> 00:42:45,829
right that we have to look at things in

919
00:42:52,229 --> 00:42:48,919
that way but I want to kind of counter

920
00:42:54,939 --> 00:42:52,239
some of the things that you're saying in

921
00:42:57,849 --> 00:42:54,949
the from where I'm coming from that I

922
00:43:00,220 --> 00:42:57,859
think I'd like to love to explore with

923
00:43:03,610 --> 00:43:00,230
you and hear your response to four

924
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:03,620
I understand the assume they're all

925
00:43:10,090 --> 00:43:08,000
dirty ethos you know I mean III get that

926
00:43:11,290 --> 00:43:10,100
in the way that you said it in terms of

927
00:43:12,070 --> 00:43:11,300
if we're really going to get to the

928
00:43:15,550 --> 00:43:12,080
bottom of it

929
00:43:15,970 --> 00:43:15,560
we can't keep giving people the benefit

930
00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:15,980
of the doubt

931
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:18,110
you know maybe a plane really did fly

932
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:21,410
into 9/11 no you have to analyze the

933
00:43:25,540 --> 00:43:23,030
evidence the best you can and then

934
00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:25,550
bravely come to the conclusions that

935
00:43:31,090 --> 00:43:27,910
you're going to come to no matter how

936
00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:31,100
unpleasant they might be at the same

937
00:43:37,990 --> 00:43:34,310
time I don't think assume they're all

938
00:43:41,590 --> 00:43:38,000
dirty really works either and it can

939
00:43:44,310 --> 00:43:41,600
lead us to kind of our own just

940
00:43:47,620 --> 00:43:44,320
reinforcing our own beliefs in a way so

941
00:43:50,140 --> 00:43:47,630
let me kind of present my thesis and

942
00:43:52,540 --> 00:43:50,150
I'll do that by first talking about

943
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:52,550
Terrence and Dennis McKenna who I'm sure

944
00:43:58,300 --> 00:43:54,970
you're aware of and they're

945
00:44:01,240 --> 00:43:58,310
well-documented Psychonauts people who

946
00:44:03,310 --> 00:44:01,250
explored psychedelics but I mean go look

947
00:44:05,230 --> 00:44:03,320
at their history Joe these are two kids

948
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:05,240
I mean they're practically teenagers I

949
00:44:12,130 --> 00:44:08,480
think Terrence is 23 and Dennis is 19

950
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:12,140
when they're there in India which has a

951
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:16,160
long long many hundreds or thousands of

952
00:44:23,770 --> 00:44:20,450
year history in using psychedelic and

953
00:44:26,980 --> 00:44:23,780
mine altering plants and cotton

954
00:44:30,220 --> 00:44:26,990
substances so they're there looking for

955
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:30,230
the truth and they can't find it or they

956
00:44:35,530 --> 00:44:33,350
they become disillusioned with what they

957
00:44:37,570 --> 00:44:35,540
see so they say okay we're gonna go

958
00:44:39,580 --> 00:44:37,580
totally third-world we're gonna go to

959
00:44:41,260 --> 00:44:39,590
Colombia and they start traipsing

960
00:44:43,210 --> 00:44:41,270
through the hills of Colombia and you

961
00:44:46,030 --> 00:44:43,220
can go read their accounts and read

962
00:44:47,620 --> 00:44:46,040
their their story and you can also look

963
00:44:51,850 --> 00:44:47,630
at their lives and how they live their

964
00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:51,860
lives afterwards and you know again here

965
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:54,080
is where I think assuming they're all

966
00:45:00,040 --> 00:44:57,650
dirty doesn't work if you if we have

967
00:45:03,340 --> 00:45:00,050
some solid evidence that suggests that

968
00:45:05,890 --> 00:45:03,350
these guys were their message was being

969
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:05,900
controlled and manipulated then bring it

970
00:45:11,950 --> 00:45:09,200
but the way that I read it sounds pretty

971
00:45:13,550 --> 00:45:11,960
straight up to me that they're walking

972
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:13,560
through the hills and they do

973
00:45:17,990 --> 00:45:16,200
across shaman who we do know exist and

974
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:18,000
they say yeah there are the mushrooms

975
00:45:22,610 --> 00:45:20,610
you can eat and here are some of the

976
00:45:24,140 --> 00:45:22,620
other plants that you can do and here

977
00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:24,150
are the effects and they'll connect us

978
00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:27,150
with this alternative consciousness that

979
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:29,670
I think we're going to talk about in a

980
00:45:35,810 --> 00:45:33,330
minute so let me just stop there and say

981
00:45:39,380 --> 00:45:35,820
what do you make of Terrence and Dennis

982
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:39,390
McKenna in my opinion they're just total

983
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:44,130
liars and are basically just operatives

984
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:48,210
for the organization I could be wrong I

985
00:45:53,630 --> 00:45:50,040
mean how could I actually prove it there

986
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:53,640
there is hold on because you can prove

987
00:45:59,050 --> 00:45:56,400
it I mean I think the kind of proof that

988
00:46:02,090 --> 00:45:59,060
you brought to gordon Wasson is

989
00:46:02,870 --> 00:46:02,100
incredibly compelling to most of us it

990
00:46:05,540 --> 00:46:02,880
is to me

991
00:46:08,270 --> 00:46:05,550
but you know the last time we spoke I

992
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:08,280
told you about right I brought up

993
00:46:13,310 --> 00:46:10,530
Ram Dass you know former Harvard

994
00:46:15,140 --> 00:46:13,320
University and colleague of Timothy

995
00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:15,150
Leary who when you look into his

996
00:46:19,340 --> 00:46:17,460
background you know you could kind of

997
00:46:21,380 --> 00:46:19,350
draw these conclusions that it looks

998
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:21,390
sketchy so that's why I didn't bring him

999
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:24,210
him up again if you really look at his

1000
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:26,850
life and his associates and the people

1001
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:29,490
around him and what they say hundreds

1002
00:46:33,860 --> 00:46:31,530
and hundreds of people I don't think

1003
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:33,870
he's at all sketchy I think we can only

1004
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:36,210
take his account for for what it is

1005
00:46:40,430 --> 00:46:38,310
again I don't think we can assume he's

1006
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:40,440
dirty but I left him out of the

1007
00:46:45,710 --> 00:46:42,960
discussion this time because Terrence

1008
00:46:48,890 --> 00:46:45,720
and Dennis McKenna I've look I just

1009
00:46:51,980 --> 00:46:48,900
don't see the the usual kind of funny

1010
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:51,990
business connections with with the power

1011
00:47:00,770 --> 00:46:56,480
structure well the case you know is

1012
00:47:03,290 --> 00:47:00,780
circumstantial and you know it's quite

1013
00:47:05,090 --> 00:47:03,300
often by you know basically by

1014
00:47:08,170 --> 00:47:05,100
association I mean we're dealing with a

1015
00:47:11,330 --> 00:47:08,180
secret society right we're dealing with

1016
00:47:16,460 --> 00:47:11,340
you know people who are trained to be

1017
00:47:18,770 --> 00:47:16,470
basically lifetime actors and so you're

1018
00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:18,780
rarely gonna come across you know

1019
00:47:23,990 --> 00:47:20,520
fingerprints you know like Gloria

1020
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:24,000
steinem's outing as a CIA janitor gordon

1021
00:47:26,660 --> 00:47:25,920
was-- and they requisitioned three on

1022
00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:26,670
kale

1023
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:29,180
you know they're good at hiding it um

1024
00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:34,410
but you have a circumstantial case that

1025
00:47:43,460 --> 00:47:38,160
I think becomes you know what should be

1026
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:43,470
the operative reality and with the you

1027
00:47:51,020 --> 00:47:47,040
know with Terence Mckenna you know he

1028
00:47:54,980 --> 00:47:51,030
talks so much about the you know the

1029
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,990
mushroom I believe it is talking you

1030
00:48:00,200 --> 00:47:56,880
know this information that he's getting

1031
00:48:04,670 --> 00:48:00,210
you know from the the plant I mean this

1032
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:04,680
is rubbish and is basically it's the

1033
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:09,690
same approach that Gordon Watson used

1034
00:48:14,750 --> 00:48:12,090
but hold on joke because now we're

1035
00:48:16,490 --> 00:48:14,760
really getting at the root cause of this

1036
00:48:18,830 --> 00:48:16,500
and the way that I think it connects

1037
00:48:20,780 --> 00:48:18,840
with what I've investigated and with

1038
00:48:24,740 --> 00:48:20,790
skeptical for the last ten years and

1039
00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:24,750
that here's my working hypothesis that I

1040
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:27,300
accept so much of what you're saying as

1041
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:30,330
being true in the debasing of culture

1042
00:48:35,510 --> 00:48:33,330
the weaponizing of anthropology which I

1043
00:48:38,290 --> 00:48:35,520
love that phrase that you've turned

1044
00:48:42,580 --> 00:48:38,300
there I think it's perfectly stated and

1045
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:42,590
the weaponization of the mind and

1046
00:48:46,940 --> 00:48:45,390
psychedelics as a part of that but

1047
00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:46,950
here's where I read the history

1048
00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:50,400
different I think they made a

1049
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:54,590
fundamental mistake in what they thought

1050
00:49:00,830 --> 00:48:57,810
psychedelics would do and how they would

1051
00:49:02,990 --> 00:49:00,840
be used because they had a fundamental

1052
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:03,000
misunderstanding about the nature of

1053
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:05,940
consciousness and as I've explored on

1054
00:49:10,970 --> 00:49:08,010
this show that fundamental

1055
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:10,980
misunderstanding continues to be the

1056
00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:14,130
dominant paradigm in science but it is

1057
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:18,260
just not true so they were on they were

1058
00:49:23,930 --> 00:49:21,450
operating under this paradigm mind

1059
00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:23,940
equals brain that we can change the

1060
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:27,150
brain and that will somehow since the

1061
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:29,490
brain generates all consciousness that

1062
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:31,800
will change the conscious experience and

1063
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:34,290
what they didn't plan on and what they

1064
00:49:39,860 --> 00:49:36,090
didn't understand what they didn't see

1065
00:49:40,130 --> 00:49:39,870
is that consciousness is somehow and

1066
00:49:43,010 --> 00:49:40,140
some

1067
00:49:47,330 --> 00:49:43,020
we don't understand fundamental it's

1068
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:47,340
beyond the brain the brain is to put it

1069
00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:50,370
in simple terms acting like a filter or

1070
00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:53,460
a valve in how consciousness is

1071
00:50:01,160 --> 00:49:57,060
perceived and operated with by the human

1072
00:50:03,790 --> 00:50:01,170
being but we are not consciousness and I

1073
00:50:06,140 --> 00:50:03,800
think there's a there's a deeper

1074
00:50:07,970 --> 00:50:06,150
struggle if you want to call it with you

1075
00:50:10,370 --> 00:50:07,980
know this elite class is controlling

1076
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:10,380
class that oligarchs and you know who

1077
00:50:15,350 --> 00:50:12,570
knows how that whole thing is divided

1078
00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:15,360
but I think there's a fundamental divide

1079
00:50:21,140 --> 00:50:18,510
even among those groups in terms of this

1080
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:21,150
issue of consciousness and whether we

1081
00:50:27,470 --> 00:50:23,910
really are these biological robots that

1082
00:50:29,170 --> 00:50:27,480
can be manipulated or whether as we know

1083
00:50:31,850 --> 00:50:29,180
from a lot of these secret societies

1084
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:31,860
their understanding is that there is

1085
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:34,170
some higher order to consciousness and

1086
00:50:39,290 --> 00:50:37,050
there is some effect in the spiritual

1087
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:39,300
world that they're trying to marshal and

1088
00:50:44,990 --> 00:50:42,000
control but before I get too far afield

1089
00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:45,000
I want to bring it back to you and I got

1090
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:47,640
tons of evidence I can scientific

1091
00:50:52,940 --> 00:50:50,370
evidence as we talked about in you know

1092
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:52,950
my recent episode with codeine Akoni and

1093
00:50:56,990 --> 00:50:55,410
I talked about Rick Strassman and I can

1094
00:50:59,840 --> 00:50:57,000
give you just tons of other examples

1095
00:51:01,520 --> 00:50:59,850
David Nutt in the UK all these

1096
00:51:03,890 --> 00:51:01,530
experiments that have been done with

1097
00:51:07,100 --> 00:51:03,900
psychedelics that all seem to point in

1098
00:51:10,420 --> 00:51:07,110
the same direction it's not about the

1099
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:10,430
brain primarily it's pointing to a

1100
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:13,050
greater consciousness that is somehow

1101
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:15,870
fundamental and I don't think these

1102
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:19,170
culture shapers knew that or saw that

1103
00:51:24,650 --> 00:51:22,530
until they ran square into it with the

1104
00:51:28,010 --> 00:51:24,660
psychedelic movement what are your

1105
00:51:30,310 --> 00:51:28,020
thoughts on that well if it's not about

1106
00:51:34,670 --> 00:51:30,320
the brain then they don't need the drugs

1107
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:34,680
so that well they it's not that they

1108
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:37,530
need the drugs but that there is a

1109
00:51:43,370 --> 00:51:40,920
larger consciousness and that when you

1110
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:43,380
effect the drugs you can affect the way

1111
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:45,780
that we interact with that larger

1112
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:48,240
consciousness but it's not to

1113
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:50,730
misunderstand the relationship between

1114
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:53,570
the brain and consciousness

1115
00:51:57,210 --> 00:51:55,370
it's like the 50 shows I've done on

1116
00:51:59,830 --> 00:51:57,220
near-death experience

1117
00:52:02,890 --> 00:51:59,840
the reason I did him is because there's

1118
00:52:06,130 --> 00:52:02,900
kind of the final straw

1119
00:52:09,820 --> 00:52:06,140
I mean consciousness extends beyond

1120
00:52:12,850 --> 00:52:09,830
bodily death we know that science and

1121
00:52:15,190 --> 00:52:12,860
the science control mechanism fights

1122
00:52:17,650 --> 00:52:15,200
that tooth and nail because they like

1123
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:17,660
the paradigm that were under right now

1124
00:52:23,110 --> 00:52:20,530
which is all this very controlled

1125
00:52:24,930 --> 00:52:23,120
biological robot kind of thing but

1126
00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:24,940
that's just not the nature of reality

1127
00:52:29,260 --> 00:52:27,110
consciousness extends beyond bodily

1128
00:52:31,090 --> 00:52:29,270
death that's just the way it is I don't

1129
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:31,100
know what it means but that's the way it

1130
00:52:38,380 --> 00:52:36,530
is well as I said if it isn't you know

1131
00:52:41,140 --> 00:52:38,390
about the brain and the ozarks wouldn't

1132
00:52:44,650 --> 00:52:41,150
need the drugs the oleg arts are you

1133
00:52:47,530 --> 00:52:44,660
know the issues that that you're you

1134
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:47,540
know bringing up are really just in a

1135
00:52:54,070 --> 00:52:51,770
separate categorical compartment it's

1136
00:52:56,770 --> 00:52:54,080
just the the oligarchs were interested

1137
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:56,780
in control they use drugs basically to

1138
00:53:01,870 --> 00:52:58,310
produce what they what they see as

1139
00:53:05,020 --> 00:53:01,880
psychosis so when when someone takes

1140
00:53:08,170 --> 00:53:05,030
drugs and you know basically sees

1141
00:53:11,110 --> 00:53:08,180
something that is not in what the oleg

1142
00:53:13,210 --> 00:53:11,120
arcs see as the world the real world the

1143
00:53:18,030 --> 00:53:13,220
world that they want to control then

1144
00:53:22,570 --> 00:53:18,040
they've had you know success and so

1145
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:22,580
basically if you look at Wasson's paper

1146
00:53:29,050 --> 00:53:25,520
you know the first you know the life

1147
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:29,060
magazine article he says that the drugs

1148
00:53:33,130 --> 00:53:31,310
produce a kind of schizophrenia and he

1149
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:33,140
says that this is very positive right

1150
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:35,690
that this something people should want

1151
00:53:42,550 --> 00:53:39,890
to have just after the acid test the

1152
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:42,560
Esalen Institute which McKenna is

1153
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,200
involved with produced the seminars on

1154
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:49,040
psychosis prend

1155
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:51,200
they all promoted psychosis is kind of

1156
00:54:01,300 --> 00:53:55,520
this artistic and valuable state you

1157
00:54:04,180 --> 00:54:01,310
have Alan Ginsberg Alan Watts the one of

1158
00:54:05,339 --> 00:54:04,190
the guys a psychiatrist from Peru I

1159
00:54:07,319 --> 00:54:05,349
think

1160
00:54:11,130 --> 00:54:07,329
and you know they're all touting the

1161
00:54:13,769 --> 00:54:11,140
values of psychosis as well if you just

1162
00:54:16,109 --> 00:54:13,779
always analyze these things from the

1163
00:54:18,299 --> 00:54:16,119
perspective of the of the oligarch you

1164
00:54:20,729 --> 00:54:18,309
can see you know that they're getting

1165
00:54:23,849 --> 00:54:20,739
what they want they could care less if

1166
00:54:27,689 --> 00:54:23,859
the individuals in the psychotic or

1167
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:27,699
schizophrenic or drug-induced state you

1168
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:30,640
know have a spiritual community

1169
00:54:34,769 --> 00:54:32,380
communion with something they don't care

1170
00:54:37,259 --> 00:54:34,779
but but hold on because that's kind of

1171
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:37,269
the point in a way you know you can go

1172
00:54:41,099 --> 00:54:38,880
all the way back and look at the

1173
00:54:43,259 --> 00:54:41,109
experiments that we still can see the

1174
00:54:46,289 --> 00:54:43,269
LSD experiments that we can still see

1175
00:54:48,209 --> 00:54:46,299
youtubes on and what a lot of these

1176
00:54:51,209 --> 00:54:48,219
people that have these transformative

1177
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:51,219
spiritual experiences are saying is hey

1178
00:54:56,479 --> 00:54:54,130
I'll trump your I don't care with even

1179
00:54:59,059 --> 00:54:56,489
bigger I don't care and by that I mean

1180
00:55:01,620 --> 00:54:59,069
all's I care about is that

1181
00:55:04,199 --> 00:55:01,630
transformative spiritual experience

1182
00:55:07,289 --> 00:55:04,209
because that is the window to the large

1183
00:55:09,930 --> 00:55:07,299
reality that you don't get so you can

1184
00:55:13,709 --> 00:55:09,940
play your little control game down here

1185
00:55:16,259 --> 00:55:13,719
and you can kill millions of people and

1186
00:55:20,459 --> 00:55:16,269
you can abuse whoever you want to abuse

1187
00:55:24,509 --> 00:55:20,469
but you are close to a larger reality

1188
00:55:28,259 --> 00:55:24,519
that I now have a glimpse of so I'm kind

1189
00:55:30,029 --> 00:55:28,269
of more at peace with the game that

1190
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:30,039
you're playing and I'm not trying to

1191
00:55:36,329 --> 00:55:32,890
convince you of that per se but I'm just

1192
00:55:39,599 --> 00:55:36,339
saying that is another way to read

1193
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:39,609
what's going on and it's actually what

1194
00:55:44,189 --> 00:55:41,650
they're saying so the people in the LSD

1195
00:55:46,019 --> 00:55:44,199
experiments that are it's hilarious if

1196
00:55:47,729 --> 00:55:46,029
one goes back and watches this because

1197
00:55:49,709 --> 00:55:47,739
they're these guys in these 1950s

1198
00:55:51,749 --> 00:55:49,719
short-sleeve white shirts and the thin

1199
00:55:53,130 --> 00:55:51,759
ties and they didn't know what they were

1200
00:55:56,339 --> 00:55:53,140
doing and they do this drug and they're

1201
00:55:59,329 --> 00:55:56,349
suddenly like man everything I thought I

1202
00:56:02,099 --> 00:55:59,339
knew I don't know it doesn't matter and

1203
00:56:03,779 --> 00:56:02,109
if we read the records the experimenters

1204
00:56:06,660 --> 00:56:03,789
ago hey wait a minute this isn't exactly

1205
00:56:09,449 --> 00:56:06,670
what we wanted or expected here you know

1206
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:09,459
so if the CIA or these control

1207
00:56:13,469 --> 00:56:11,529
mechanisms being what they are and this

1208
00:56:16,949 --> 00:56:13,479
is again my opinion they are more

1209
00:56:18,940 --> 00:56:16,959
reactive than proactive right no one is

1210
00:56:20,740 --> 00:56:18,950
right a hundred percent of the time

1211
00:56:22,329 --> 00:56:20,750
so what these guys do is just real crap

1212
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:22,339
out there and then say oh well that

1213
00:56:27,130 --> 00:56:24,770
didn't go the way we wanted well how can

1214
00:56:29,859 --> 00:56:27,140
we still use it how can we you know

1215
00:56:31,809 --> 00:56:29,869
debase culture with it or whatever but I

1216
00:56:35,410 --> 00:56:31,819
can see how they could go down that path

1217
00:56:38,049 --> 00:56:35,420
without realizing what they had

1218
00:56:44,010 --> 00:56:38,059
unleashed and what they had unleashed is

1219
00:56:48,099 --> 00:56:44,020
an access a doorway to truly a greater

1220
00:56:51,069 --> 00:56:48,109
consciousness field and you know if I

1221
00:56:52,930 --> 00:56:51,079
could bring it back to the interview you

1222
00:56:56,589 --> 00:56:52,940
listened to that I gave you the clips

1223
00:56:58,990 --> 00:56:56,599
from dr. Rick Strassman at University of

1224
00:57:01,690 --> 00:56:59,000
New Mexico who just a few years ago

1225
00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:01,700
relatively you know was given permission

1226
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:05,920
to use DMT and to experiment with DMT I

1227
00:57:11,799 --> 00:57:09,410
mean again we can assume that they're

1228
00:57:14,109 --> 00:57:11,809
all dirty but I find no reason to assume

1229
00:57:16,089 --> 00:57:14,119
that they're all dirty from looking at

1230
00:57:20,140 --> 00:57:16,099
this guy's research in talking to this

1231
00:57:23,940 --> 00:57:20,150
guy and yet his conclusion is that his

1232
00:57:27,460 --> 00:57:23,950
subjects of his experiment were truly

1233
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:27,470
transported to a different field of

1234
00:57:32,650 --> 00:57:29,690
consciousness beyond their brain that

1235
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:32,660
had different characteristics and again

1236
00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:36,079
that's been widely reported so I can see

1237
00:57:41,349 --> 00:57:39,260
how both of these can be true how there

1238
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:41,359
can be this larger consciousness and

1239
00:57:49,120 --> 00:57:45,910
there can also be these control oriented

1240
00:57:51,099 --> 00:57:49,130
master the universe oriented people who

1241
00:57:54,460 --> 00:57:51,109
just kind of ignore all that and say

1242
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:54,470
well how can I use these tools to get my

1243
00:57:58,710 --> 00:57:56,960
gains so I don't think that's really

1244
00:58:02,170 --> 00:57:58,720
where you're at but I want to make clear

1245
00:58:06,220 --> 00:58:02,180
that's the that's kind of how I see the

1246
00:58:08,289 --> 00:58:06,230
landscape sure I would just point out

1247
00:58:11,789 --> 00:58:08,299
those those videos I mean you're looking

1248
00:58:15,789 --> 00:58:11,799
at Sidney cone and Nicholas Burke al

1249
00:58:18,250 --> 00:58:15,799
these are both MKULTRA psychiatrists if

1250
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:18,260
you analyze the questioning that they're

1251
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:21,650
doing of the subjects basically these

1252
00:58:28,510 --> 00:58:25,910
individuals should be tried for human

1253
00:58:30,099 --> 00:58:28,520
experimentation right these are like the

1254
00:58:32,859 --> 00:58:30,109
sickest individuals that have ever

1255
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:32,869
crawled on the planet because they know

1256
00:58:36,220 --> 00:58:34,490
perfectly well that they've induced a

1257
00:58:38,620 --> 00:58:36,230
kind of schizophrenia and the questions

1258
00:58:42,749 --> 00:58:38,630
they're trying to see to what extent is

1259
00:58:45,609 --> 00:58:42,759
the you know perception of reality being

1260
00:58:47,499 --> 00:58:45,619
damaged by the drug they're looking for

1261
00:58:51,029 --> 00:58:47,509
how much psychosis they can produce

1262
00:58:52,839 --> 00:58:51,039
they're using human beings for

1263
00:58:55,150 --> 00:58:52,849
experimentation and there is no

1264
00:58:56,739 --> 00:58:55,160
guarantee that these individuals are

1265
00:58:58,900 --> 00:58:56,749
going to recover their sanity many

1266
00:59:01,089 --> 00:58:58,910
people have taken that drug and have had

1267
00:59:02,859 --> 00:59:01,099
complete psychotic breaks that they've

1268
00:59:06,519 --> 00:59:02,869
never recovered from and those

1269
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:06,529
individuals damn well knew it Alex so I

1270
00:59:11,259 --> 00:59:09,200
don't disagree with you you know I don't

1271
00:59:14,170 --> 00:59:11,269
do so back to those videos you go back

1272
00:59:17,319 --> 00:59:14,180
to those videos to Bercow and Cohn and

1273
00:59:19,059 --> 00:59:17,329
and just very carefully analyze the

1274
00:59:22,269 --> 00:59:19,069
questioning that they're doing and

1275
00:59:25,420 --> 00:59:22,279
you'll see they do not have any concern

1276
00:59:28,210 --> 00:59:25,430
whatsoever for the human value of their

1277
00:59:30,579 --> 00:59:28,220
subjects these are lab rats and they're

1278
00:59:33,339 --> 00:59:30,589
trying to determine that the degree of

1279
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:33,349
psychosis that has happened Cohen is

1280
00:59:37,690 --> 00:59:35,690
just I mean you're just dealing with

1281
00:59:39,609 --> 00:59:37,700
evil you know on a scale that's just

1282
00:59:42,729 --> 00:59:39,619
unimaginable most humans can't even

1283
00:59:44,349 --> 00:59:42,739
imagine that that humans can really be

1284
00:59:45,460 --> 00:59:44,359
that sick and that's one of the reasons

1285
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:45,470
why they can get away with it is because

1286
00:59:49,900 --> 00:59:47,930
people don't call them on it but this is

1287
00:59:51,579 --> 00:59:49,910
the case they knew perfectly well that

1288
00:59:53,650 --> 00:59:51,589
the drug produced psychosis and they

1289
00:59:55,210 --> 00:59:53,660
knew perfectly well that a fraction the

1290
00:59:56,140 --> 00:59:55,220
people wouldn't going to come back but

1291
00:59:58,960 --> 00:59:56,150
they went forward with the

1292
01:00:00,339 --> 00:59:58,970
experimentations regardless and then you

1293
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:00,349
know I'll tell you something

1294
01:00:05,410 --> 01:00:03,170
those guys are also at the the EM Cal to

1295
01:00:08,410 --> 01:00:05,420
a union party and then you can see that

1296
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:08,420
sick individual Sidney Cohen going you

1297
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:11,359
know people say that the CIA you know

1298
01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:13,730
funded us and was in Bakula what do you

1299
01:00:17,499 --> 01:00:15,049
think about that he's asking the

1300
01:00:19,059 --> 01:00:17,509
question because John marks book about

1301
01:00:21,940 --> 01:00:19,069
The Manchurian Candidate has come out

1302
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:21,950
well I'm sorry mr. Cohen but you know

1303
01:00:26,380 --> 01:00:24,410
the MKULTRA pay requisitions then got

1304
01:00:27,970 --> 01:00:26,390
released and you were identified as

1305
01:00:30,670 --> 01:00:27,980
being one of the people being funded

1306
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:30,680
through the program so this question is

1307
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:32,720
just a distraction he's trying to move

1308
01:00:36,759 --> 01:00:35,359
people away from the idea that well you

1309
01:00:38,829 --> 01:00:36,769
know I might have been actually guilty

1310
01:00:43,630 --> 01:00:38,839
against crimes crimes against humanity

1311
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:43,640
um you know you know you talk about okay

1312
01:00:47,829 --> 01:00:45,490
we've got to

1313
01:00:49,359 --> 01:00:47,839
like with strassman and we shouldn't

1314
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:49,369
really be working oh we should like give

1315
01:00:55,450 --> 01:00:51,650
him the benefit of the doubt Alex I just

1316
01:00:58,450 --> 01:00:55,460
strongly disagree until we get some

1317
01:01:00,880 --> 01:00:58,460
clarity hold on hold on I get your point

1318
01:01:03,730 --> 01:01:00,890
there but that's not real either I mean

1319
01:01:05,260 --> 01:01:03,740
everything you're saying is true so you

1320
01:01:07,359 --> 01:01:05,270
know put together the other pieces that

1321
01:01:07,990 --> 01:01:07,369
you're talking about with 911 I mean

1322
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:08,000
come on

1323
01:01:12,010 --> 01:01:10,010
we've been at this for 17 years anyone

1324
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:12,020
who thinks we're gonna get to the bottom

1325
01:01:17,890 --> 01:01:15,410
of 9/11 or someone's gonna come out and

1326
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:17,900
tell the truth that guy that I don't I

1327
01:01:21,730 --> 01:01:19,760
haven't researched it enough to know if

1328
01:01:23,230 --> 01:01:21,740
the guy is for real but that YouTube

1329
01:01:27,309 --> 01:01:23,240
that was making the rounds in the last

1330
01:01:29,230 --> 01:01:27,319
couple months of a inside operative CIA

1331
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:29,240
guy who says yeah here's how we brought

1332
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:30,890
down building seven it was a controlled

1333
01:01:34,450 --> 01:01:32,510
demolition and it's a deathbed

1334
01:01:36,790 --> 01:01:34,460
confession which we know in the court of

1335
01:01:38,500 --> 01:01:36,800
law carries a lot more weight than a

1336
01:01:40,030 --> 01:01:38,510
regular confession so I don't know if

1337
01:01:42,130 --> 01:01:40,040
that's been debunked folks if it has I

1338
01:01:44,710 --> 01:01:42,140
apologize I've been meaning to research

1339
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:44,720
that but I haven't but the like you

1340
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:46,250
pointed out the pentagon thing you know

1341
01:01:51,970 --> 01:01:48,530
anyone who's close looks at the Pentagon

1342
01:01:53,770 --> 01:01:51,980
yeah it's like game over but come on

1343
01:01:58,359 --> 01:01:53,780
we're never gonna get to the bottom of

1344
01:02:00,790 --> 01:01:58,369
that so why no I don't like well I'm not

1345
01:02:03,490 --> 01:02:00,800
talking about I'm talking about from a

1346
01:02:05,410 --> 01:02:03,500
pragmatic practical standpoint I'm

1347
01:02:08,559 --> 01:02:05,420
saying we have to try and navigate all

1348
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:08,569
this stuff the best that we can and I'm

1349
01:02:13,599 --> 01:02:10,970
just I'm just uncomfortable with the

1350
01:02:15,849 --> 01:02:13,609
assume that they're all dirty thing

1351
01:02:18,849 --> 01:02:15,859
because I think it can that can also

1352
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:18,859
lead us down a path where we're just

1353
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:21,890
create an echo chamber of confirming our

1354
01:02:26,290 --> 01:02:24,410
own beliefs so if you have something

1355
01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:26,300
about until we find out what's inside

1356
01:02:30,670 --> 01:02:28,640
the government this is all you know

1357
01:02:33,339 --> 01:02:30,680
angels dancing on the head of a pin who

1358
01:02:34,930 --> 01:02:33,349
knows I just I don't have a clue I don't

1359
01:02:36,490 --> 01:02:34,940
know if draftsman is dirty how would I

1360
01:02:38,589 --> 01:02:36,500
possibly know that I don't know I've

1361
01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:38,599
never studied his work it could well be

1362
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:41,930
that is not but the point is we cannot

1363
01:02:49,660 --> 01:02:45,970
go forward at this particular time with

1364
01:02:54,130 --> 01:02:49,670
all the time Joe we're all going forward

1365
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:54,140
all the time we're all let's see Alex

1366
01:02:57,579 --> 01:02:56,210
let's go forward to some clarity of what

1367
01:02:58,870 --> 01:02:57,589
exactly the government is doing because

1368
01:03:02,110 --> 01:02:58,880
here's my point

1369
01:03:05,260 --> 01:03:02,120
look this was all used against us once

1370
01:03:06,940 --> 01:03:05,270
right it was all used against us the sex

1371
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:06,950
drugs and rock and roll culture was

1372
01:03:12,730 --> 01:03:09,680
artificial it was used against us it

1373
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:12,740
really debased and damaged our culture

1374
01:03:20,020 --> 01:03:16,490
and so now as we you know hats it here

1375
01:03:22,990 --> 01:03:20,030
we have you know this new era new drugs

1376
01:03:26,830 --> 01:03:23,000
new research new government involvement

1377
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:26,840
we just aren't in a position until we

1378
01:03:33,130 --> 01:03:29,410
know what is controlling the government

1379
01:03:35,800 --> 01:03:33,140
to trust these things they hurt us once

1380
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:35,810
this time let's put a little scrutiny

1381
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:38,570
and sunlight on these things and you

1382
01:03:42,370 --> 01:03:40,610
know it's it's like with Strassmann or

1383
01:03:44,650 --> 01:03:42,380
any of the people that are kind of

1384
01:03:46,630 --> 01:03:44,660
advocating sort of the Psychonauts right

1385
01:03:48,070 --> 01:03:46,640
that are wanting this you know let's go

1386
01:03:49,870 --> 01:03:48,080
into this area and try to do more

1387
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:49,880
research here's what I would say to them

1388
01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:52,130
Alex you know what if you are really

1389
01:03:59,230 --> 01:03:56,510
ethical then what you should do is is is

1390
01:04:02,650 --> 01:03:59,240
not put the cart before the horse the

1391
01:04:04,450 --> 01:04:02,660
first step should be we've got to really

1392
01:04:06,790 --> 01:04:04,460
understand what the tradition of the

1393
01:04:09,250 --> 01:04:06,800
psychedelic movement is that's the first

1394
01:04:12,940 --> 01:04:09,260
thing we got to do we need informed

1395
01:04:15,820 --> 01:04:12,950
consent so before you start promoting

1396
01:04:17,590 --> 01:04:15,830
all of the advantages right spiritual

1397
01:04:21,610 --> 01:04:17,600
development that these drugs can bring

1398
01:04:24,940 --> 01:04:21,620
you've got to give the public the truth

1399
01:04:27,220 --> 01:04:24,950
about the history of all of them and the

1400
01:04:29,410 --> 01:04:27,230
truth about what the government did and

1401
01:04:31,450 --> 01:04:29,420
what what it was trying to do and what

1402
01:04:34,270 --> 01:04:31,460
sort of influence was trying to have if

1403
01:04:36,940 --> 01:04:34,280
we get there we will have informed

1404
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:36,950
consent but if we if we don't get there

1405
01:04:40,090 --> 01:04:38,510
if we don't if we're sitting there

1406
01:04:43,090 --> 01:04:40,100
saying let's try it again

1407
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:43,100
I'm sorry I just to me it's just it's

1408
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:45,890
completely unethical until we get to the

1409
01:04:49,390 --> 01:04:47,810
bottom of what happened and who did it

1410
01:04:51,130 --> 01:04:49,400
and how it was designed and what the

1411
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:51,140
purpose of all this stuff was we

1412
01:04:56,590 --> 01:04:53,930
shouldn't be trying to move forward with

1413
01:04:58,810 --> 01:04:56,600
with you know psychedelic drugs and

1414
01:05:00,250 --> 01:04:58,820
particularly drugs like the business

1415
01:05:02,350 --> 01:05:00,260
with Strassmann where he's getting

1416
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:02,360
government funding man I would just say

1417
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:05,570
that on its surface is is just a really

1418
01:05:11,620 --> 01:05:10,850
bad idea so let's stop pause and spend a

1419
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:11,630
little bit of time

1420
01:05:16,270 --> 01:05:13,730
I'm getting an understanding of what

1421
01:05:18,730 --> 01:05:16,280
happened to us and then we'll know how

1422
01:05:20,860 --> 01:05:18,740
we can move forward you make a really

1423
01:05:23,050 --> 01:05:20,870
strong point and I love your point about

1424
01:05:25,270 --> 01:05:23,060
informed consent you know the other

1425
01:05:27,970 --> 01:05:25,280
angle I always come at these things from

1426
01:05:30,850 --> 01:05:27,980
and it's the spiritual perspective

1427
01:05:32,500 --> 01:05:30,860
because that's what this show skeptic oh

1428
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:32,510
is about it's about following the data

1429
01:05:38,530 --> 01:05:36,770
being able to accept wherever that data

1430
01:05:40,510 --> 01:05:38,540
leads you and then it's also about

1431
01:05:42,670 --> 01:05:40,520
looking for the deeper conspiracy

1432
01:05:45,070 --> 01:05:42,680
because if you don't if you think the

1433
01:05:48,070 --> 01:05:45,080
data alone is telling you the story

1434
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:48,080
you're liable to be bamboozled but the

1435
01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:49,850
third component for me is to look for

1436
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:51,710
the deeper spirituality because I think

1437
01:05:55,810 --> 01:05:53,810
there is the evidence has led me to

1438
01:05:58,270 --> 01:05:55,820
believe there is a larger truth at hand

1439
01:06:00,970 --> 01:05:58,280
that is beyond these people who are

1440
01:06:04,330 --> 01:06:00,980
playing these games these horrific games

1441
01:06:06,430 --> 01:06:04,340
these very sick and evil games I think

1442
01:06:08,590 --> 01:06:06,440
there's a larger truth beyond that maybe

1443
01:06:10,180 --> 01:06:08,600
some people agree or disagree but

1444
01:06:14,230 --> 01:06:10,190
bringing it all the way back full circle

1445
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:14,240
I mean I know you don't like Ellen watts

1446
01:06:20,380 --> 01:06:16,250
but I love the quote and I brought it up

1447
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:20,390
at my show when you get the message hang

1448
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:21,290
up the phone

1449
01:06:28,510 --> 01:06:24,170
so anyone who's interested in being

1450
01:06:30,580 --> 01:06:28,520
psycho not my point is you really don't

1451
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:30,590
undercut the message yet you don't get

1452
01:06:37,630 --> 01:06:33,440
the message about what being a better

1453
01:06:40,570 --> 01:06:37,640
person is about loving everyone about

1454
01:06:43,390 --> 01:06:40,580
the first rules of every wisdom

1455
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:43,400
tradition tell the truth hey that's the

1456
01:06:49,540 --> 01:06:46,010
hard part the hard part isn't going on

1457
01:06:52,570 --> 01:06:49,550
some expanded consciousness adventure

1458
01:06:55,690 --> 01:06:52,580
the hard part is coming back in living

1459
01:06:58,380 --> 01:06:55,700
your life in a way that is congruent

1460
01:07:00,730 --> 01:06:58,390
with these values that that we all

1461
01:07:02,170 --> 01:07:00,740
resonate with and say that's really how

1462
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:02,180
we're supposed to believe live our life

1463
01:07:07,350 --> 01:07:04,610
so I never bring that up on this show

1464
01:07:09,820 --> 01:07:07,360
but since you so strongly made the case

1465
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:09,830
against psychedelics and against

1466
01:07:14,380 --> 01:07:12,650
entheogens I'm not going to make that

1467
01:07:17,290 --> 01:07:14,390
same case because I think people can

1468
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:17,300
find space in there that probably makes

1469
01:07:23,710 --> 01:07:19,690
sense inside of some greater

1470
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:23,720
spirituality but I which your

1471
01:07:29,470 --> 01:07:27,050
extreme caution and ask why is that

1472
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:29,480
really why is that really necessary what

1473
01:07:35,050 --> 01:07:31,970
do you really hope to accomplish by that

1474
01:07:39,970 --> 01:07:35,060
if you truly are looking for this deep

1475
01:07:43,839 --> 01:07:39,980
spirituality yeah I mean I have nothing

1476
01:07:46,839 --> 01:07:43,849
against psychedelic drugs for spiritual

1477
01:07:52,210 --> 01:07:46,849
exploration I you know in general

1478
01:07:54,940 --> 01:07:52,220
nothing whatsoever I really just want to

1479
01:07:57,070 --> 01:07:54,950
focus right now on how they've been used

1480
01:08:00,190 --> 01:07:57,080
who used them what was the purpose of

1481
01:08:01,510 --> 01:08:00,200
bringing him into her culture and you

1482
01:08:04,599 --> 01:08:01,520
know as I said I just want to have

1483
01:08:07,870 --> 01:08:04,609
informed consent going forward with

1484
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:07,880
Strassmann you know if he was here I

1485
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:10,450
would just say stop what you're doing

1486
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:15,050
take your energies and help try to

1487
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:18,730
determine what really wasn't back of the

1488
01:08:25,780 --> 01:08:23,290
leg Gordon Watson and Tim Leary and

1489
01:08:29,620 --> 01:08:25,790
Sydney Cowan let's get to the truth

1490
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:29,630
about this just remember this when they

1491
01:08:33,820 --> 01:08:31,489
asked for the document Helms just

1492
01:08:37,329 --> 01:08:33,830
laughed at him and destroyed him he

1493
01:08:38,979 --> 01:08:37,339
wasn't even fired right and and this was

1494
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:38,989
when Nate when the Church Commission

1495
01:08:43,959 --> 01:08:41,210
asked for the documents they had

1496
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:43,969
fatalities citizens that have been given

1497
01:08:49,059 --> 01:08:46,210
LSD without their knowledge who had died

1498
01:08:52,420 --> 01:08:49,069
right this was these were the conditions

1499
01:08:55,420 --> 01:08:52,430
that that the Congress was demanding the

1500
01:08:57,010 --> 01:08:55,430
documents the only reason this stuff

1501
01:08:58,570 --> 01:08:57,020
comes out it says they were also doing

1502
01:09:00,340 --> 01:08:58,580
it up in Canada and they have different

1503
01:09:01,630 --> 01:09:00,350
freedom of information laws and they

1504
01:09:04,180 --> 01:09:01,640
were I would take them to court in

1505
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:04,190
Canada they were able to keep the seal

1506
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:06,710
on it in the u.s. exactly so anyway I

1507
01:09:13,420 --> 01:09:09,770
just I just want to get the full

1508
01:09:16,150 --> 01:09:13,430
disclosure before we go forward because

1509
01:09:17,950 --> 01:09:16,160
I am worried that they're going to that

1510
01:09:20,019 --> 01:09:17,960
they you know are gonna try to do it

1511
01:09:21,849 --> 01:09:20,029
again and I think we need to be nervous

1512
01:09:24,010 --> 01:09:21,859
about that because they didn't get

1513
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:24,020
caught the first time you see they

1514
01:09:30,190 --> 01:09:26,810
didn't really get caught the they became

1515
01:09:31,599 --> 01:09:30,200
awareness and then they simply told us

1516
01:09:33,610 --> 01:09:31,609
that they weren't going to use these

1517
01:09:35,410 --> 01:09:33,620
kinds of techniques anymore but you can

1518
01:09:36,099 --> 01:09:35,420
just see from the example I gave about

1519
01:09:39,010 --> 01:09:36,109
SR

1520
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:39,020
that they they could care less about you

1521
01:09:45,999 --> 01:09:42,489
know the democratically controlled

1522
01:09:48,370 --> 01:09:46,009
components of democracy right they have

1523
01:09:50,499 --> 01:09:48,380
the they think those are just a joke

1524
01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:50,509
they can circumvent those anytime they

1525
01:09:58,840 --> 01:09:54,340
want the deep state oleg ARCIC control

1526
01:10:00,760 --> 01:09:58,850
is what has the power and so we when we

1527
01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:00,770
look at strassman I think we have to

1528
01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:03,170
have a question mark and go hey is this

1529
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:07,040
guy you know part of that and and we

1530
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:09,530
don't know until we get more information

1531
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:12,080
and Strassman if he is you know an

1532
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:14,330
ethical individual I think he would look

1533
01:10:18,550 --> 01:10:15,770
at this data and go you know there right

1534
01:10:19,899 --> 01:10:18,560
and I'm not gonna go forward I'm going

1535
01:10:21,459 --> 01:10:19,909
to stop and we're gonna really try to

1536
01:10:25,709 --> 01:10:21,469
get to the bottom of all this because I

1537
01:10:29,229 --> 01:10:25,719
can see that it's easy to look at me as

1538
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:29,239
possibly a reader a reiteration of what

1539
01:10:33,399 --> 01:10:31,250
was done in the 50s and 60s

1540
01:10:36,070 --> 01:10:33,409
Joe for folks who are interested in

1541
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:36,080
pursuing this further in terms of your

1542
01:10:41,530 --> 01:10:38,570
thoughts on it where would you direct

1543
01:10:43,209 --> 01:10:41,540
them are you are you gonna write a book

1544
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:43,219
on this you really should you've come

1545
01:10:47,530 --> 01:10:45,770
down a half mile becoming essence called

1546
01:10:51,070 --> 01:10:47,540
um the secret language of the oligarchs

1547
01:10:54,090 --> 01:10:51,080
and I want to notice maybe 60 days away

1548
01:10:56,700 --> 01:10:54,100
I'll you'll get the first copy and

1549
01:10:58,750 --> 01:10:56,710
basically it just it does literary

1550
01:11:01,510 --> 01:10:58,760
deconstruction of brave new world

1551
01:11:03,939 --> 01:11:01,520
Huxley's book and then it shows that

1552
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:03,949
this isn't a fiction or a warning but

1553
01:11:10,810 --> 01:11:06,489
rather this is a plan that's being

1554
01:11:12,850 --> 01:11:10,820
implemented and I show that one thing

1555
01:11:15,340 --> 01:11:12,860
the oligarchs do fortunately is they

1556
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:15,350
have a kind of sense of humor they have

1557
01:11:19,649 --> 01:11:17,330
a literary genre that they communicate

1558
01:11:23,770 --> 01:11:19,659
with and I give examples of modern

1559
01:11:26,740 --> 01:11:23,780
writers who are using this um this

1560
01:11:30,570 --> 01:11:26,750
literary genre and I just try to you

1561
01:11:34,060 --> 01:11:30,580
know give people what I think are useful

1562
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:34,070
informations to you know have a more

1563
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:37,280
effective democracy this could be really

1564
01:11:44,890 --> 01:11:39,760
interesting to see how that book is

1565
01:11:47,709 --> 01:11:44,900
received among your audience because I

1566
01:11:48,409 --> 01:11:47,719
just get the sense that a lot of the

1567
01:11:52,330 --> 01:11:48,419
folks who

1568
01:11:55,219 --> 01:11:52,340
have been with you and stayed with you

1569
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:55,229
might find a little bit of upset with

1570
01:12:00,229 --> 01:11:57,090
that kind of thing but we'll see that's

1571
01:12:02,989 --> 01:12:00,239
big interesting well if I don't then you

1572
01:12:06,139 --> 01:12:02,999
know I haven't done my job I mean you

1573
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:06,149
know this is really you know I mean yeah

1574
01:12:17,629 --> 01:12:13,010
I I just try to understand my world and

1575
01:12:19,939 --> 01:12:17,639
write about you know forces and you know

1576
01:12:22,100 --> 01:12:19,949
things which are hidden sometimes

1577
01:12:24,949 --> 01:12:22,110
sometimes not but that I think are

1578
01:12:26,959 --> 01:12:24,959
valuable to people I mean really all I

1579
01:12:30,229 --> 01:12:26,969
really want to do alex is try to help

1580
01:12:32,719 --> 01:12:30,239
have a more effective democracy I mean I

1581
01:12:35,359 --> 01:12:32,729
the oligarchs you know you talked about

1582
01:12:37,580 --> 01:12:35,369
sort of the the reasons that you know

1583
01:12:39,469 --> 01:12:37,590
they would want to have power and some

1584
01:12:43,159 --> 01:12:39,479
of these can be seen is actually you

1585
01:12:45,439 --> 01:12:43,169
know inevitable or even beneficial but I

1586
01:12:46,399 --> 01:12:45,449
just see democracy now is very very

1587
01:12:48,830 --> 01:12:46,409
ineffective

1588
01:12:51,229 --> 01:12:48,840
we're lied to we're given you know

1589
01:12:54,020 --> 01:12:51,239
candidates that are controlled by secret

1590
01:12:56,629 --> 01:12:54,030
societies and so our democracy just

1591
01:13:00,229 --> 01:12:56,639
isn't effective and I think that when

1592
01:13:02,689 --> 01:13:00,239
when you do your job and I do mine that

1593
01:13:05,839 --> 01:13:02,699
democracy benefits that you have a more

1594
01:13:08,929 --> 01:13:05,849
informed citizenry more skeptical more

1595
01:13:11,299 --> 01:13:08,939
able to ask the right questions and then

1596
01:13:14,810 --> 01:13:11,309
hope to heaven that we start getting

1597
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:14,820
better candidates as a result of it our

1598
01:13:19,279 --> 01:13:17,369
guest again has been Josaphat wolf I

1599
01:13:21,049 --> 01:13:19,289
just understood that he's coming up with

1600
01:13:22,609 --> 01:13:21,059
a new book secret language of the

1601
01:13:24,949 --> 01:13:22,619
oligarchs can't wait to see that

1602
01:13:27,679 --> 01:13:24,959
but we've been mainly talking about a

1603
01:13:31,100 --> 01:13:27,689
lot of the work that you'll find at your

1604
01:13:33,529 --> 01:13:31,110
website right post Flav iana.org I'll

1605
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:33,539
link that up in the show notes Joe it's

1606
01:13:36,859 --> 01:13:36,239
been great as always having you on thank

1607
01:13:39,589 --> 01:13:36,869
you Alex

1608
01:13:41,330 --> 01:13:39,599
talk to you soon I hope thanks again to

1609
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:41,340
Joseph Atwell for joining me today on

1610
01:13:46,850 --> 01:13:44,130
skeptic oh one question I'd have to tee

1611
01:13:49,699 --> 01:13:46,860
up from this interview how much should

1612
01:13:52,899 --> 01:13:49,709
we be concerned about the government's

1613
01:13:55,879 --> 01:13:52,909
past present and future interest in

1614
01:13:58,219 --> 01:13:55,889
manipulating consciousness through

1615
01:13:59,929 --> 01:13:58,229
psychedelics so as you heard you know

1616
01:14:02,240 --> 01:13:59,939
Joe and I squared off on some of these

1617
01:14:04,910 --> 01:14:02,250
issues and I disagree with some of his

1618
01:14:07,010 --> 01:14:04,920
points but again in typical kind of Joe

1619
01:14:10,270 --> 01:14:07,020
at-will style I think he's revealed

1620
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:10,280
something extremely important that

1621
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:12,810
overshadows any minor disagreements I

1622
01:14:18,260 --> 01:14:15,930
might have with him and that is what the

1623
01:14:21,530 --> 01:14:18,270
hell is the deep state doing trying to

1624
01:14:23,540 --> 01:14:21,540
manipulate consciousness with drugs so I

1625
01:14:25,300 --> 01:14:23,550
asked the question but I kind of tipped

1626
01:14:27,980 --> 01:14:25,310
my hand in terms of where I'm leaning

1627
01:14:30,980 --> 01:14:27,990
love to hear your input your thought

1628
01:14:33,020 --> 01:14:30,990
your challenge to anything that came up

1629
01:14:35,270 --> 01:14:33,030
for you in this interview of course the

1630
01:14:39,440 --> 01:14:35,280
place to do it is through the skeptical

1631
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:39,450
website s ke P tik oh you can download

1632
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:42,810
any of the 350 previous shows you know I

1633
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:44,010
wrote a book a while back I never

1634
01:14:48,530 --> 01:14:45,690
mentioned the book I probably should

1635
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:48,540
have my publisher would appreciate if I

1636
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:51,210
did he'd appreciate if you buy the book

1637
01:14:56,570 --> 01:14:53,730
why science is wrong about almost

1638
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:56,580
anything I have to do a better job of

1639
01:15:00,980 --> 01:14:58,800
mentioning that and I will probably even

1640
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:00,990
put it on the website wow what an idea

1641
01:15:05,690 --> 01:15:03,810
there anyways go to the website you can

1642
01:15:07,640 --> 01:15:05,700
also check out the skeptical forum

1643
01:15:10,610 --> 01:15:07,650
connect with me there connect with me

1644
01:15:12,710 --> 01:15:10,620
Facebook or any way you might choose

1645
01:15:15,650 --> 01:15:12,720
have a couple interesting shows coming